Today’s episode is brought to you by “Odessa on the Delaware: Introducing FBI Agent Marsha O’Shea”. I sincerely hope you will enjoy this thrilling crime novel. You can purchase it here: Amazon

Tracy Clark is the author of the Cass Raines PI series. The series, set in Chicago, features ex-homicide cop turned PI Cassandra Raines, a hard-driving African-American gumshoe who works the mean streets of the Windy City dodging cops, cons, killers, and thugs. Her debut novel, BROKEN PLACES, made Library Journal’s list of the Best Crime Fiction of 2018 and was shortlisted in the mystery category on the American Library Association’s 2019 Reading List. CrimeReads also named Cass Raines Best New PI of 2018. The novel also received a starred review from Publishers Weekly, a rave from Kirkus Review, and was nominated for a Lefty Award for Best Debut Novel, an Anthony Award for Best Debut Novel and a Shamus Award for Best First PI Novel. Her second Cass Raines novel, BORROWED TIME, released in May 2019. Book three, WHAT YOU DON’T SEE, releases June 2020. A native Chicagoan, Tracy roots for the Cubs, the Sox, the Bears, the Blackhawks, the Chicago Shy, and the Chicago Fire equally. She is a member of Sisters in Crime, PI Writers of America, International Thriller Writers and Mystery Writers of America Midwest.

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Episode Transcript:

John: hi Tracy, welcome to the

[00:00:01] MFDS Tracy Clark John: show.

[00:00:02] Tracy: Hi John, Thanks for inviting me.

[00:00:04] John: So how’s the weather out there in the windy city today?

[00:00:07] Tracy: Not so well today. It’s like 60 degrees in really storming. That’s kind of cool and sort of breezy, which is kind of nice after the summer. We’ve had

[00:00:16] John: hot.

[00:00:17] Tracy: hot sticky humid typical, Chicago.

[00:00:20] John: Lovely

[00:00:21] Tracy: So they were transitioning over to fall now.

[00:00:24] John: Oh, that’s must be nice. I’ve been to the windy city a few times during some very hot hot days and some very very cold cold days. So I know that awful Lake Michigan. It’s like Forrest Gump’s box of chocolates. You’re never know what you’re going to get.

[00:00:37] Tracy: true the weather changes every day.

[00:00:40] John: and that’s a good thing for us now out here in Southwestern Connecticut where I reside it’s just a picture perfect early fall day. I’m never going to complain about the springtime again here because this summer has been absolutely gorgeous. So I wanted to reach out to you for a couple reasons first.

[00:01:01] I want to thank you. For being on the podcast and You also were nominated for the 2019 Sheamus Award for best first private eye novel and it’s Broken Places. So congratulations for your nomination.

[00:01:17]Tracy: Thank you very much.  I’m very excited about it.

[00:01:20] John: Then when I looked at it I said hmm. She’s writing about a very interesting fictional character a private detective with a good back story by the name of Cassandra or Cass rains and at this point I’m going to turn the reins over to you.

[00:01:37] Tracy: Well, what sort of describe cass to you. She’s sort of like maybe Sam Spade, but she’s black and she’s midlife and kind of curmudgeny, snarky, a bit of a badass.

[00:01:51] She’s a former. Homicide detective turn PI so she sort of got that transition going. I started liking her to sort of like a Terminator. She does when she gets on the lead. He doesn’t stop he keeps on going to you could barely sleeps. He barely eats. All he’s interested in is getting this  case done finding out who the murderer is and putting all the puzzle pieces together.

[00:02:14] John: Was it she liked that as a Chicago copper?

[00:02:17]Tracy: She was but when we open up on the first book in Broken Places, we sort of catch her at the last day of her police career.

[00:02:26] So we meet her on the worst day the worst thing sort of happens to her. She’s forced to do the worst thing that any police officer through dread having happened to them in their career and she sort of pivots and she has to change and moves into the rest of the story and that sort of propelled her to book two and three and she said I have to.

[00:02:48] Figure out sort of how to readjust and to sort of  reclaim her life, basically.

[00:02:54]John: You said there’s three books so I mentioned broken places and borrow time and there’s a third one.

[00:02:59] Tracy: Yes, there is a third one. I have about two days to send my edits back into my publisher. So I’m at the tail end of that. And then I have my outline ready for a book four and then I will start that soon as I turn these suckers in on Monday. So yeah, so the third book and then there’s a fourth.

[00:03:15] John: able to give a title to the third book yet, or is that

[00:03:19] Tracy: The third book is called What You Don’t See and it’s sort of has to sort of deal with stalking and finding out who is behind unexplained circumstances.

[00:03:32] That’s all I’ll say. I don’t want to give too much away. But

[00:03:34] John: No, and it involves our favorite Chicago Private

[00:03:39] Detective

[00:03:39] Tracy: Yep, it does Cass is asked to sort of act as a bodyguard for sort of a magazine publisher and things sort of jump off from there.

[00:03:51] John: Now and then you and you said that you’re outlining your fourth book, so that’s I know how you feel.

[00:03:57] And I’m only going to say this for a couple minutes because I had that wonderful feeling just a week ago where I was able to type the words the end. At the end of  one of my books Clearwater Blues, which I still have to of course have edited and cover for and copy edit it. So but.

[00:04:25] Immediately right after that boom. I was into doing my prep work  and starting to do my stuff for my next novel which is going to be called Detroit wheel. So, I know that sense that once you get on a roll with a character, I know somewhere during your borrow time. You were probably this this all came to you about the next one, right?

[00:04:50] And I’m sorry the third one the third one’s name again is what I’m sorry.

[00:04:53] Tracy: It’s called that What You Don’t See.

[00:04:55] What You don’t See, and the clicking

[00:04:57] John: was my pen clicking so that I could

[00:04:57] Tracy: Yeah, that’s kind of the kind of thing. You’re halfway in the the story that you’re telling but you can sort of see where the resonating things will be.

[00:05:04] So you sort of put that in the back of your head. This is what my time I going to carry on to the next book. So let me keep that in mind and that goes into your outline. And yeah, you just sort of like but working for Dunkin Donuts, you know used to always time to make the donuts. You do one the other one comes right behind it.

[00:05:19] And the other one comes right behind that so yeah.

[00:05:21] John: And and if you’re in love with your character and your setting and your and your characters your Supporting Cast it just seems like it’s. Well, it’s work. Like you said like, you know, it’s time to make the donuts, but it’s also it’s just natural it just flows and that’s what’s so wonderful about writing a series with a compelling character such as Cass rains so during.

[00:05:48] During at least the two that our readership can get their hands on and listenership can get their hands on what would you say would be Cass’ most redeeming assets and what are some of our biggest shortcomings and foibles if I can

[00:06:06] Tracy: I think her greatest asset is the fact that she should have cares for people not just people see those friends family, but people see sort of encounters on the street.

[00:06:16] She can sort of see their predicament and sort of wants to help so she’s got that really. Evolved helping mechanism in place. She really wants to help make a difference sort of clean the streets up make things right sort of help people who are being preyed upon and sort of put upon so I think that’s your greatest strength wanting caring and wanting to make things better.

[00:06:38] I think one of her biggest negativities is the fact that she does not play well with others on a routine basis. I mean she sort of. Get your sights on something and she will go for that. No matter what anybody says so sometimes she plays that smart. Sometimes it doesn’t but we just sort of have to gamble and hopefully she comes out, okay.

[00:07:00] John: I would say that the phrasing of that would be that she suffers fools badly.

[00:07:04] Tracy: exactly.

[00:07:06] John: And that is she been liberated though because she doesn’t have the bureaucracy of the Chicago Police Department Weighing on her head.

[00:07:14] Tracy: Yeah, she’s free. She’s free and easy. She can do whatever she wants to she’s the sole operator over own agency.

[00:07:20] So she’s her boss. She can go where she wants to go or not. She comes up against the police very often. So, you know, there’s got that pressure over. This is our case not your case and she doesn’t care. I mean, she’s got a client. She’s got something that she has to solve and she’ll do that. So.

[00:07:38] John: That’s fantastic. And then and that rub is for real. I mean as a practicing private investigator, I understand that quite a bit. So yeah now and then the what would you say some of our foibles besides, you know, not playing well with others anything that is kind of quirky in her personality that actually helps her solve the crimes or the situations.

[00:08:03] I know tough question.

[00:08:05] I don’t know when I don’t know how to answer

[00:08:08] Okay. Well, does she look at things a little differently than the average bear and does she see things where other people don’t see?

[00:08:14]Tracy: I don’t think she I think she’s got trust issues. I think that maybe that’s it. She doesn’t trust people easily and that has to do really with her backstory and the things that sort of happened to her in her past.

[00:08:26] So she’s got that. Radar always on so social encounters people and her first thing is to sort of look into it now her eyes and see what’s going on. Not trusting people sort of taking a slant on it and then that plays out and she’s right about that then great. Sometimes she’s not so I think that would probably be her biggest spoil.

[00:08:50] I mean just sort of right off the bat just trusting people.

[00:08:53] John: Okay, and then to that point that then then she looks at she filters things through that through that worldview and it tends to work out for because gosh, I’m just trying to think of that old Motown song about lying faces. I’m not going to sing it for you.

[00:09:15] You know what I’m saying? And or the backstabbers by The O’Jays, but anyway, what was the impetus for writing Tracy? What was the impetus for Cass coming into this world?

[00:09:30] Tracy: Well, I was at Abbott Abbott reader like I think most writers are so you should have grew up with the stories and I always sort of gravitated to the ones that were Mysteries and like Nancy Drew.

[00:09:41] I think everybody sort of has that sort of as a foundation. Hardy Boys and stuff like that and then that sort of gravitated to Scooby-Doo cartoons. And then I sort of went back and did the 1930s and 1940s old black and white movies The Thin Man stuff like that Dashiell Hammett, Sam Spade. So I always liked Mysteries.

[00:10:03] I always read them. Even when I was in college and high school in always had one in my backpack.

[00:10:08] John: Really?

[00:10:09] Tracy: yeah, I always did. I mean I’m sort of whipped through all the a Christie’s I think between maybe sophomore year in high school through maybe senior year. I always had one in my back pocket or in my backpack and I always liked those so then I got to the point where I didn’t see myself in them.

[00:10:28] I said, hey, wait a minute. I would like to see a mystery with an African-American woman in it, you know, not as a sidekick not as a best friend. You know, but not as a sassy neighbor, you know, but as the hero as the protagonist so I didn’t see those out there until maybe 80 something maybe 90 something and then I sort of found Valerie Wilson Wesley’s camera hail.

[00:10:51] And Blanche white from Barbara nearly and by Walter Mosley, of course, and then I then I got the idea while if they’re doing it and that’s how I have to get my character in there. I’m going to write one of my own and it took a couple of years before I sort of worked up the courage and the motivation to do that and then it took dozens of years to sort of actually get something on paper.

[00:11:13] That was halfway good. You know, so yeah, I wanted to see myself in the story and I guess the only way I could do that. So my satisfaction was to write one

[00:11:24] John: That’s so interesting that you said that that’s I love that your own backstory about. You know being an avid writer in the genre Avid Reader scuse me Avid Reader and the genre going back into high school and college, you know having a Nancy Drew in your backpack.

[00:11:39] That’s a really nice visual. I must tell you I was a military war buff. I would get my hands on that but not not until. I decided to become a criminology major in college that I discovered the writings of Joseph wamba or John Grisham for. And then Lawrence block. I don’t know how I found warrants block.

[00:12:12] But but for me, then it became these fictional characters became my my alter ego but my my companion in my own Journey. So for me, that was something that I felt was always but that’s how my reading in my genre grew so, but I could see that you had a real desire. To to do exactly what you said about seeing yourself in the story.

[00:12:42] Now. Why do you think it took as much time for your first book or the eye of getting to your through your first getting to start your first book? What do you think some of that was about in terms of yourself in hindsight?

[00:12:57] Tracy: it right. Why don’t you scary? I mean any way you cut it you sort of have to prop yourself up and really both yourself up to do it.

[00:13:04] I mean it’s kind of frightening and a blank page is a daunting thing. So I’ve sort of read a lot as much as I could I took every writing course there was. In high school and college and grad school. I went to mystery conferences even before I even wrote anything. I would go for years and take notes and listen to people talk about setting and voice and how important all those things were and that went on for maybe.

[00:13:35] Maybe five or seven years just going and listening to other authors talk about how they do it and how it needs to be done. And then I sort of made the decision at one of these the last one make me the next to the last one. I went to that I wasn’t going to come back until I had actually written something and for that entire year until the other conference rolled around that was my year to sort of see or try out to see whether or not I could do it and.

[00:14:01] That year, I just sort of sat down and wrote what I thought with a book and turned out not to be but it was a sort of priming the pump. So I went back up conference that next year and I had some skin in the game and I actually knew you know a little bit about what it took what kind of motivation you have to have and then I sort of had an idea of where I needed to go.

[00:14:27] And from that point on I think it was maybe another maybe 10-15 years before anything ever happened. So I’m just turning up paper and writing and throwing things away and writing again and clearing thinking I’m done and not being done and being rejected and sort of piling those rejection letters up like every writer does and you know, two decades, you know, I would really wish I could say or is it overnight success, but, you know took like maybe 25 30 years.

[00:14:55] John: And a lot of persistence.

[00:14:59] Tracy: Yeah, you have to be persistent because it’s a tough thing. You can to sort of predict what public publishing houses or editors or agents are looking for. You just sort of have to believe in what you’re doing and your character and the story that you’re telling and be persistent and take the advice that they’re given along the way and put that ticket views and revise and revise and revise.

[00:15:24] And there’s no shortcut of way around it. That’s the process you have to do it and those I think you are successful in the end are the

[00:15:34] John: Yeah, there’s a wonderful saying that I think it was in Napoleon Hill’s think. Rich I’m an inspiration I’m a self-help junkie and and I read those inspirational typewriting he talked about how a man had given up three feet from gold and he was just that close to literally mining a goal of vein of gold that would have made them into a multi-millionaire.

[00:16:04] But the thing is.

[00:16:06] Tracy: of like the scene in African queen. Remember when they’re in the boat on this River of of clogged with reason everything and their cognitive way through and he’s got leeches all over them and they sort of get exhausted and give up and then like three feet from the Open Water.

[00:16:20] It’s kind of like that. I mean. It’s just just like that.

[00:16:24] John: Oh, I like that. I like that much better than my analogy.

[00:16:28] Tracy: No, yours is good, too.

[00:16:29] John: Right now I do I know I like it better because it has

[00:16:32] Tracy: Jungle Out

[00:16:33] John: It has a sassy Kate Hepburn and it was it Charlie all nut. Was that done yet Charlie all nut.

[00:16:40] Oh boy. I’m telling you. I know my old wow. So this

[00:16:45] Tracy: that’s like

[00:16:46] John: this has been but it was for you. It was a lot of prep work. Obviously. I mean going to the conferences. Trying to learn more and more about it, but then finally just said enough of the diapers. I got to do it. I got to do it and you.

[00:17:05] Tracy: think what the what the really got me off. The stick was 1982. We’re not an Indemnity Only from Sarah frisky came out. I’ve been to that point. I didn’t go into the conferences and listening to taking my notes and doing whatever. Sort of practicing trying to sort of teach myself to write and then I saw a review of her first book in the Tribune on Sunday morning.

[00:17:28] And I said that sounds exactly like the story that I want to write. So I went out and they bought the book and sort of fell in love with that and it was I was Off to the Races after that. So now it became a process of me trying to replicate. I just effective story in that vein in that genre and along the way came to Grafton and Marshall Miller and Margaret Marin and all these great writers who are sort of writing in the same vein.

[00:17:54] And so I had all of this sort of sort of aspire to.

[00:17:58]John: And it gave you the final push to do

[00:18:03] Tracy: point you have to sort of stop thinking about it. Stop wanting it. And actually put your hiney and chair and get it done and it’s just that simple.

[00:18:12]John: yeah, but in a chair hands on the keyboard.

[00:18:14] Tracy: exactly.

[00:18:15] John: now I understand and I my .

[00:18:19] Journey is a lot different. I’m not going to bore you with it, but I will tell you that my how do I want to say it? My willingness to fall down flat on my face and get back up again  Allowed me to get to where my first book was published in a little bit faster time period than you only because I’ve had a, you know, a long background of trying things to not working trying.

[00:18:50] Gettin gettin gettin. So I already had that that sort of experience but you did well in high school and college and then with your Masters and then taking the notes. I mean, this was not something that you took lightly so bye-bye. So the by a time you got to where the inspiration and confidence came together.

[00:19:11] You had a skill set already and you are ready to rock.

[00:19:15] Tracy: Yeah,

[00:19:15] John: So that’s

[00:19:16] Tracy: have to prepare yourself. You have to prepare yourself. This is not an easy business writing is not an easy thing. It’s very easy to get discouraged and sort of what I give up and you just can’t allow yourself to do that. If that’s what you want.

[00:19:30] This is what you want to do. Then you have to sort of put in the time learn as much as you can eat as much as you can and do it.

[00:19:38] John: And you know you talked about persistence earlier, but I think there’s also an element of having a thicker hide that you know, you have to be

[00:19:45] Tracy: Yeah, because yeah, it’s kind of it’s kind of hard when those rejection letters come in, you know, you sort of put your heart and soul into something you send it off you put a little stamp on it and you come back and you get this little form letter that says no, thanks, but no thanks and you sort of have to pick yourself up and go at it again.

[00:20:02] If they give you if they’re kind enough to give you advice or tips on how to improve what you given them. Take that advice will get in there

[00:20:13] John: Oh and that’s the nice thing about my journey a little bit to that you just touched on is that before I wrote my first fiction. I had written for trade Publications and newsletters and what have you and I always had people edit my.

[00:20:28] And the editors were always constructive and when I saw how something was written better or how to change things around and it made sense. I realized that they weren’t attacking me and that my lump of clay still needed to be sculpted a little bit more. And I’ve always taken it that way and I always felt that it was always to make me a better writer and I never took it as being an attack on my on my personhood.

[00:20:57] So you mentioned a bunch of names their of people in the biz that have written but who would you say is your most  favorite author and your favorite fictional Detective?

[00:21:12] Tracy: got so many see from my childhood growing up here. I would say Agatha Christie was my favorite. I really loved those books really sneaky brake lever here red herrings really clever twists Hercule Poirot, tummy and tuppence Beresford,

[00:21:31] John: I’m sorry.

[00:21:32] I didn’t know that Tommy and.

[00:21:34] Tracy: tell me at up and see ya. So I read all of this, you know, like a locked door Mysteries and. people getting hacked off in their dens and whatever so I like that so going back probably that one once I started to really. Get the desire to write and do it. Well, I would say that 1980s with that sort of golden era of women writers Sara Paretsky Sue Grafton Marshall Miller Nancy Picard.

[00:22:02] I liked a lot Karen. Could you ski. Yeah battery Wilson vesely. So yeah, there are a lot of examples out there a lot of things that you can sort of read and sort of try to. How could I sort of work that in or how could I sort of take what they’re doing and make my stuff better? It’s all learning.

[00:22:22] It’s all sort of getting better. It’s all taking in itself and I think all writers are thieves and sneak these and it take things from here. They take all that worked. Well, I wonder how they replicated in my stuff. Yeah. So anybody I read I love writing. I love writers. I love books anything any better interesting that I can sort of.

[00:22:44] See if I can work with I do, you know, it’s make your stuff better and

[00:22:50] John: You mentioned one of my favorites back in the day Sue Grafton and it’s a shame that she didn’t get through the alphabet.

[00:22:57] Tracy: Yeah, it is.

[00:22:58] John: kelp is it Kelsey millhone? Is that her Kinsey? I know it began with a kit K. I’m sorry. I apologize.

[00:23:06] And but I remember the last name. So yeah, and she was she was very special to in our own. In our own special way any particular fictional character, that would say that Cass rains would be would cozy up to next to a bar and have a great conversation with.

[00:23:28] Tracy: Nick Charles for the Thin Man series.

[00:23:33] I think she would really get along with him.

[00:23:36] John: No

[00:23:36] Tracy: of like the the kind of

[00:23:37] John: old school shot.

[00:23:39] Tracy: that kind of snarky, you know, they don’t care about any of it. Whatever if she would have getting on really well up with him. I

[00:23:47] John: right. And from I have to ask you the author of The Thin Man, please?

[00:23:53] Tracy: Dashiell Hammett.

[00:23:54] John: Okay, I should know that. You know, I should know that because when I say that I read the classics, I’m not talking about F Scott Fitzgerald Hemingway or Shakespeare. I’m talking about Dashiell Hammett Raymond Chandler and Ross MacDonald

[00:24:12] Tracy: the Godfather’s yeah.

[00:24:15] John: you know, but I hadn’t gone to the Thin Man yet.

[00:24:17] I’ve been I’m still working my way through.

[00:24:20] Tracy: them out. They’re good.

[00:24:21] John: right. I’m still working my way through the Continental Ops. So but you know and I read some other special stuff, but I mean closely read closely. It’s terrible that you know us writers read other writers now because we’re reading them without that same pure joy that we had when we were just readers, you know, we’re looking at oh I look at that hook or how did they sentence?

[00:24:45] How do they structure that scene or. That wasn’t really a good Cliffhanger or oh come on, you could do better with that dialogue, you know

[00:24:54] Tracy: you know what? I don’t do that. I mean maybe time I’m weird. I don’t when I read I read as a reader would read I read for pleasure. I read because I like the style of the writing the strength of the writing of the characters one of those conferences that I went to back in the day.

[00:25:10] They said you either books are either a character-driven. Our plot ribbon and I do almost immediately that I was going to write character-driven stories because that’s where my mind was at. so yeah, so you give me an interesting character a character that’s kind of unique and so themselves then I’m in and I will follow you anywhere and I don’t read it.

[00:25:35] Picking things out. Now. If I see something interesting interesting way that they sort of said something or interesting way that’s it and sort of played out and essentially that’s interesting. I might we be when I start with my stuff I’ll do that, you know, so yeah, I write this effort is a reader enjoy it as the writer intended me to do and then I go from there.

[00:25:56] John: No kidding. Okay. I don’t know whatever happened to me. I got you know

[00:26:00] Tracy: I don’t pick it apart.

[00:26:03] John: Oh, I yeah, I do because you know why maybe the difference between us Tracy is that you put your time in early? And for a really long time and I’m putting my time in now as I’m on the fly, so I’m not afraid to say that and I’m learning a craft from what I’m reading these days and that to me is I’m not trying to make up for lost time but once the veil was lifted and I could see you know, how a three act structure works.

[00:26:38] You know what? You know what your Beats should be and how everything should fit together. I then started to do more of an analysis of the story and but you’re right. There are times when 50 pages go by in a heartbeat and I’m wondering where that time go. You know, I wasn’t doing any analysis during that time here.

[00:26:58] I was just sucked into the story and loved it. So so Nick and and

[00:27:05] Tracy: at

[00:27:05] John: they would they would have a great conversation.

[00:27:08] Tracy: sitting the bar all night long and just talk crap.

[00:27:11] John: Let me tell you about this one. No you tell you know, and then oh wait, I got a better one. Let me tell you about the

[00:27:16] Tracy: I can match that bullet hole.

[00:27:19] Look at

[00:27:20] John: Anyway, that’s so interesting. So but let me ask you and you touched on this a little bit that you you’ve identified that your stories or more character-driven then plot driven and I’m plot-driven. So I’m interested to hear how your outlines go when you’re outlining cause you said you were an outliner.

[00:27:43] Yes.

[00:27:44] Tracy: Well, I wasn’t until I got my book deal and now I am because they require it before that. I would just sort of sit down and start on page one and go as far as I needed to go and get stuck and have to go back and but now yeah, I have to outline because I require it and it’s not an easy thing for me because I hate doing it.

[00:28:03] You know, but I do the same thing. I just sort of write it down instead of having it in my head like it did before I just sort of actually write it down. I started chapter 1 this is what happens in chapter one chapter two did it and I go all the way through the whole story and now that I’ve done it, let’s see one two three times.

[00:28:21] I can sort of appreciate. The benefit of having sort of a map or a you know a guy thing. So I kind of appreciate it. I don’t like doing it. I still have to do it but now I sort of see where it might be valuable.

[00:28:36] John: Now, let me ask you truth. Be told Tracy Clark. Do you feel that the outlining process has helped you with?

[00:28:47] Plotting.

[00:28:50] Tracy: Yeah, I don’t get stuck as much as I used to. Um, I would pick myself into a corner all the time and sort of have to take a break and try to figure out where I went wrong and have to double back and go back the outlining does give me an easier time or sort of get making my be. Making sure that this sort of carries over to another chapter making sure I don’t lose track of foods and sort of characters which is possible.

[00:29:19] So yeah, it gives me sort of written down I can always go back to it and say this is what chapter 3 should be about then. I have to go back to the writing and make sure I get it in there. So yeah, it does help it is a benefit. I hate doing it. I can see the value.

[00:29:34] John: No in my writers group, I am with poets and I’m with short story people that just write the most incredible stuff and so it doesn’t require.

[00:29:49] Neither one of those requires an outline, you know, they don’t need to figure out 80 80 thousand words 75 door to a hundred thousand or you know, the magic number 80, they don’t have to figure that out because they are writing either in a short story or in a poem poetry. And for me. I’m the guy that writes the crime Thrillers I and I plot and I outline.

[00:30:18] And I can and I Marvel at their ability and this is a shout out to. Milford Connecticut the written word that I Marvel at what how they can create these characters and these scenes and how they can put them in such unique situations and I just always always always as am amazed by that and and I tell them all the time if I can add that to my place.

[00:30:52] If I can add that sort of thing to what I’m doing well then it’s going to make for a richer book. So why do I go to my written word every first and third Wednesday of the month? Well, it’s not so that I can get a nice pat on the back. It’s there for me. I’m there to learn about I see their strengths which are my weaknesses and I’m slowly learning to make them stronger and for me, that’s that’s it now.

[00:31:18] But on the other hand, my friends sometimes are faced with that daunting thing of having 80 thousand words staring them on a blank piece of paper. Tracy I don’t have that because I have a an outline and that scene only requires me to do 1875 words, give or take I can do that standing on my head.

[00:31:41] Do you know what I’m saying? In other words? Okay. I can sit down today, you know at 12:30 or I can sit down on Sunday at 12:30 with a cup of coffee and and by five o’clock I can have that seen done. But if I had to stare at. The first 1875 words of 80,000. It’d be like looking at Mount Everest and saying do I really want to take that first step,

[00:32:06] Tracy: I agree with you.

[00:32:08] I mean writing a sort of like he tried writing a book is trying to like eating an elephant and you can’t do it all at once. You know what I mean? You have to do it in bits and I think the outline for the helps with that you have your first chapter. You know what you have to go in that first chapter.

[00:32:24] That’s a leg you’re eating. Okay and chapter to you. So you have to eat this elephant in little tiny bits and that’s what an outline so that helps me with before. I just sort of had this looming big mammoth in front of me and you sort of freaks you out and you get nervous and stressed out. How are you going to do it?

[00:32:41] 80,000 words? Oh my God, you know, but yeah the outline now that I none of them doing it. I appreciate the fact and it gives me an ability to sort of take it in. Little bit at a time getting all the way through does it stressed me out doesn’t make me pull my hair out the end eventually at the end ivd entire elephant and everything is all nice.

[00:33:03] John: And so it does help you it strengthens. You’re it it strengthens your plotting and you’re still not diminishing your character. So book after book you’re writing stronger fiction, right?

[00:33:18] Tracy: That’s the goal.

[00:33:19] John: Yeah, you are that’s that’s the thing because if

[00:33:23] Tracy: You hope you

[00:33:25] John: yeah, I don’t I don’t hear a pomposity in your voice.

[00:33:31] I still hear a very you know that you’re still. Wanting to be that great writer that you know, that’s still inside of you and I’m hearing that I know we all suffer a little bit from The Imposter syndrome thinking that how could anybody think that we’re, you know great writers when the real greats are still out

[00:33:47] Tracy: the exactly exactly, you know, but you

[00:33:51] John: Yeah, and and I’m hearing that from you too as well.

[00:33:54] And that’s what I wanted to mention that you know, I still hear you at your working at your craft. Now, we both know that some of the songwriters I won’t say who but you know when they get there. They’re Mammoth second book deal, you know where the first one was maybe a three-book deal and and they became a runaway bestseller and the next one.

[00:34:19] You know, I’m kind of wondering why did they mail those in you know, why? You know, I’m using the phrase mailing them in because you know, I’m taking myself, okay? Well, you did was churn out your formula. What what’s so special about these and you know to me, you know, some I’m not going to say who but it just seemed like wow, that was really flat after after your opening thing.

[00:34:42] Now. Did they become did they start to think that they were better than they were? They start to believe their own hype or what was it? So I hope never to be that guy or you know a person because I know that there’s always room for improvement. I know there’s always room to be better at what I do.

[00:35:01] So, I’m glad we just took a minute to talk about plot versus character because you know, my characterizations are can get stronger and I feel that my strength is plot, I think. I really take the writer and the reader on a really nice ride and it becomes a real roller coaster at the end. But that’s that’s the way it should be any way for it that genre that were in so book 3 is now going to the editor for the final polish.

[00:35:32] Is that what you’re

[00:35:32] Tracy: Yep. I have a tee. I’d have until Monday to go through my final final revisions or changes or anything that I want to put a tweak a little bit and then I will get my pages back which I can’t really touch. She’s always the first phase for me because as you’re reading through the final final thing and see maybe another area that you.

[00:35:56] You might have gone thrown or done or change a little differently and you’re sort of prohibited from doing that. So that’s the worst phase for me up until this point. It’s all good because I could sort of massage and mold a little bit more and take another thing. But so yeah, that’s where I am and then I’ll get my final things back and it’ll be awesome and done in at the start and look for.

[00:36:20] John: You know and it’s funny that you mentioned that because and we’re that’s where we’re a little bit different too because by the time my editor gets it back to me and I give them the final revisions and they say that’s good and then we can put it, you know, we can put it into publication. The copy editor still has to do the grammar syntax and spelling to make sure that it’s done right, but after that I am I am fine because I’ve read my damn book so many times.

[00:36:52] Tracy: I mean everybody has but there’s always that you want to make it perfect. You know, it can’t be perfect.

[00:36:58] John: wants to make it perfect.

[00:37:00] Tracy: I want to make it perfect. I know already that I can’t make it perfect. But I always every time I get an opportunity to look at it. I can always find something that could be a little better a little stronger go a little smoother and I hate at that point.

[00:37:16] Where you can’t touch it? That’s the one phase of this whole process that drives me up the wall. I cannot touch it. All I can do is like if there’s a word misspelled or come out of place. I can make those, you know, little changes but story-wise I’m stuck with it, you know, so I that’s why I take very long to write it in the first place.

[00:37:36] I’m a very slow writer. I take a very long time to go through the copy. Persian when I get back and making sure that the changes that were made reflect what I wanted to say character are what all that everything, you know if make sure it’s okay and then when it comes back again, I have another chapter tunity to look at it again and too.

[00:37:55] I hope that I’ve made all the major story changes that I wanted to make but if there’s something else that sort of needs to be made I have that option and then the phase where I cannot I really wish they wouldn’t even don’t even mail it to me don’t mail me the last part of it, you know part wherever the comma out of place I don’t care at that point the comet doesn’t bother me the fact that maybe I missed something in character or studying or location or voice drives me up a wall.

[00:38:26] John: All right. Well, you know my and me as I said I am not that person and when my

[00:38:37] Tracy: writers are different.

[00:38:39] John: when my copy editor gives me back. What should be the final version I will do a random. I will take maybe 10 random pages. And if I if those 10 random pages are. grammatically. Spelling and syntax or is all correct at least has to my to my ability.

[00:39:07] Then I’m fine with it. I will not re read cover to cover the copy edit because I have to trust the copy editor. That’s what they do for a living and I’m just spot checking those 10 pages and besides and is there something in those ten pages that might want want me to buff up the character or make a tweak here?

[00:39:27] No, I’m not that guy. I think that when my editor and I have figured it out and we’re shipping it off to the to the copy editor. The story is done. It’s just a matter of making sure that all the eyes are crossed and the dotted and the t’s are dotted as they say and and and I’m happy for it now for me and this is just very very telling of me.

[00:39:55] I have a shelf that’s in a prominent location in my home where my books it and occasionally on a cold Winter’s Eve. I will reach for one of my books and I will open them up at just some spot and you know, what if I still I still get goose bumps from what I wrote and as long as I feel that way about what I’ve written.

[00:40:19] Yeah, I still feel good about it. And okay in my very first one I had some formatting issues. It was back in the day wasn’t as pretty but I had some formatting issues. I’ve ignored, you know, I just kind of gloss over that now second book. I had some copy edit problems. Copy editor problems and I’ve had to just get over that you know, because I see I see him jump off the page at me now, but all in all as long as I still get goosebumps about what I had written and I feel good about it and I was like, hey, I wrote that, you know, I feel pretty good about it.

[00:40:59] So do you see how do you feel about your babies?

[00:41:03] Tracy: I don’t know because one site they’re booked up and pages are in there the covers on and everything’s good. I don’t go back. It’s done out there. People are reading it. If I open it up now and I find something that I want to change is to its way way too late.

[00:41:21] So I just don’t it’s out there. I’m proud of it. I did the best that I could with that one and I’m glad people are enjoying it and it’s on to the next one. I don’t haven’t gone back to the first two at all to sort of read it. It’s out there seems to be doing both of them seem to be doing pretty well, and I hope people are enjoying it and want to book 3 and 4.

[00:41:43] John: a little bit to your point as I Stumble over those words, you’ve read it a gazillion times both times. So

[00:41:52] Tracy: plus I always worry that it could be it could have been better and I could have maybe done something different in that on in that scene or that chapter. It could have made it better and at that point you can’t it’s done.

[00:42:05] It’s in the it’s in the can it’s out there and why stress yourself out. I mean it’s done this past going to the next one.

[00:42:12] John: Now I’m going to ask you are you do you think that your schedule or or such allows you to be at the Sheamus Awards in Dallas in late October early November?

[00:42:24] Tracy: at the Sheamus’s.

[00:42:26] Yeah, I

[00:42:27] John: Okay, it’s a turns out yours truly. Here is a judge for the short stories. Yes. Yes and can’t say who won and but they were they were 5045 short stories of which if I was an Olympic judge, I would have had a hell of a time trying to separate, you know, you know the top. 15 let alone the five that came that ended up being nominated.

[00:42:57] Yeah. It was a great and you want to learn you want to talk about a learning experience, you know 45 different people. It’s like, you know 45 different flavors of ice cream and I love ice cream, you know, so the.

[00:43:12] Tracy: feel so good that there’s so much good stuff out there. I love reading. I can’t wait to tear into all of

[00:43:19] John: Well when we’re out there, hopefully there will be a place where I will be able to purchase.

[00:43:30] and and have you sign broken places for me

[00:43:37] Tracy: that. Thank you so

[00:43:39] John: Oh, no, I’d be my honor. I’d love to read it. And it’s not your first though, right the it is your it is your first right?

[00:43:46] Tracy: Yeah broken faces is the first

[00:43:48] John: good to start. And then what I’ll do is then I’ll follow up with the second one, you know by Kindle, you know, I hate to say but you

[00:43:55] Tracy: Candles good.

[00:43:56] I will

[00:43:58] John: I know but you know, I want you know, if I’m going to have your signature I want it on the first one. Win or lose? I want Tracy Clark signature signed copy of broken places and I thank you so much. I appreciate that. I look forward to seeing you. No, no. No, this is great. How can people reach you Tracy and how how can a few and if you’re in a place to talk to anybody maybe if they had a quick question or two, how could they

[00:44:22] Tracy: you got my website Tracy Clark books, I’m also on Twitter Tracy PC 6161.

[00:44:31] John: That’s Tracy TR AC y BC. Okay.

[00:44:36] Tracy: p as in Paul C as in Charles 161. And I’m also on Facebook and never remember my Facebook thing, but just type my name in there. I’ll pop up and Instagram which I’m very very rarely used but I still there.

[00:44:51] John: Yeah, Tracy without the e.

[00:44:53] Tracy: Without the e yeah.

[00:44:54] John: Now I know this is a guy thing.

[00:44:57] I don’t know with an does it make a difference with an e or without an E from gender?

[00:45:04] Tracy: I never even I don’t care. I mean I never even looked into. Maybe maybe it is with a maybe is a female version. I don’t know.

[00:45:14] John: Alright. Well I

[00:45:17] Tracy: but I’m without the.

[00:45:18]John: Tracy Clark nominated for best first Pi novel with broken places from the Sheamus Awards and very excited for you.

[00:45:27] Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:45:29]